Talk:Main Page

Localisation
Thoughts on have localisation pages for separate languages(or possible even a whole other wiki(eg. fr.proofwiki.org, en.proofwiki.org, etc.)? --Joe (talk) 19:11, 9 June 2011 (CDT)


 * Are there techniques for generating these things automatically? If not, isn't it more sensible to let an in-line translation tool do it for you when you access the link?
 * We already have at least one page in this wiki in German, from someone who thought that would be a good idea. But I'm daunted by the maintenance aspects of having to do the work in multiple languages - unless, as I say, there's some automatic technique for handling the hard work. --prime mover 00:26, 10 June 2011 (CDT)

Definitely a `curator' would be needed for each language. I think it's omitting large community to exclude other languages -- though perhaps it ought to be restricted to the main languages in which maths is written, say Russian, French, and German, maybe Spanish (don't know what Asian languages are used). Probably most people could write in English, but I could write in French, I very much doubt that I would. --Linus44 08:47, 10 June 2011 (CDT)


 * S'il faut que je le faire ... ah, putain de merde, je ne le veux pas. --prime mover 12:35, 10 June 2011 (CDT)


 * I rather suspect a bot would be pretty terrible at translating stuff (just try asking google translate to switch a page to french/spanish/whatever now and see how readable it is. I tend to think that it would be better to stick to one language, both to avoid creating an insane amount of work to curate/translate/etc and because it would seem to lead to a higher quality/quantity of articles (compare other language wikipedias to the english one, for instance).  Also, looking at the google analytics report for the past month: 12,000 visits from the us, 6000 from the uk, 3000 from india, 2000 each from canada and australia, 1500 from germany, 600 each from the philippines and pakistan, 500 each from south korea and france, etc.  Also 80% of visits were from some flavor of english (no, I have no idea how they track that, but google analytics is awesome). Of course, feel free to disregard all of this, seeing as it comes from an American who speaks only english and rather limited spanish. --Alec  (talk) 02:03, 12 June 2011 (CDT)

Agree that automatic translation is a non-starter; Google translate is next to useless, it just swaps each word in turn for something in the dictionary. Of the more intelligent options, comparing with a catalogue of properly translated phrases seems to be the best, but the biggest database (en français) I can find isn't really up to scratch (I tried "local field" but it just had some stuff about a meadow).

Also FWIW I changed my mind -- I think there's more to be gained by `sister sites' forming independently of proofwiki; any of the results here could be phrased, proved and categorised in ten different ways, and I see no reason to impose the existing structure on a site in another language.

It might be interesting to set up separate wikis as suggested, and demand only that the philosophy be followed. Perhaps a community might grow, and we can share stuff, manually translated as people are able/feel like it.

I would also add that the fact that the site is already written in English somewhat skews the data from Google analytics --Linus44 21:04, 12 June 2011 (CDT)


 * If anyone wants to set up a sister wiki in a foreign language, my voice is: go to it. If we find it's worth linking to, then we can do that. Until then I would suggest that Google Translate is perfectly adequate. If you can't understand the gist of what's being said then your grasp of your own language is probably a bit shaky. :-) As a basis for one to generate a different-language version of a given page it's a good start, at least for someone appropriately bilingual in those two languages.


 * But as I say: not me, not today. --prime mover 00:32, 13 June 2011 (CDT)


 * Just had another idea: who's up for working on a "mathematical translation dictionary" project which does translate "local fields" into "corps locaux"? Ça plane pour moi ... --prime mover 00:35, 13 June 2011 (CDT)

Interesting interactive mathematical research project
What's your favourite number?

I heard this guy talking on the radio this morning. Seems like a cool project - but more about psychology than mathematics.--prime mover 16:43, 22 June 2011 (CDT)

This is pretty cool. --Joe (talk) 16:47, 22 June 2011 (CDT)

New version of mediawiki
... is better tha 1.16.2. It doesn't have the tedious features of cut and paste where the focus would get lost.

Only problem is that it no longer allows global search and replace. However, I think most of the pages with "math" tags in have now been replaced with "dollar" tags, so that should not be a big problem. --prime mover 00:37, 23 June 2011 (CDT)


 * I can still get a list of the pages with math tags see them if I search for math> (yes, I intentionally left out the opening < to pick up any random loose closing tags) in Special:ReplaceText...


 * Incidentally, all of the remaining math tags are in the main/main talk, definition/definition talk, and user namespaces, with the exception of the MediaWiki:Common.js page and on User talk:Prime.mover and User talk:Joe (I suspect the ones on you guy's talk pages should probably stay, seeing as they are in reference to the switch and our no longer using the tag). --Alec (talk) 00:41, 25 June 2011 (CDT)


 * I spent ages looking for a way to search for pages with "math" in them! I just tried your technique. There are still a few such pages that need amending. I am fixing them by copying the text into an external editor, doing a search/replace there, and copying them back. It won't take too long. --prime mover 02:32, 25 June 2011 (CDT)


 * ... all done, I believe. --prime mover 16:48, 25 June 2011 (CDT)

Feature: LaTeX in templates - can't use equals sign
If you are using a template such as Template:WIP or Template:Explain, and in the explanation text you include some $\LaTeX$, then beware you can't use the equals sign in it.

This is because the MediaWiki interpreter recognises it as a parameter indicator: LHS=RHS is interpreted to mean "replace instances of LHS in this template with the value held in RHS", examples of which can be seen in Template:Citation.

So if you find any pages with "explain" and "WIP" on them without any explanatory text actually included, this is probably because that text includes some $\LaTeX$ which includes an equals sign in it.

You can get round this by replacing = signs with \text{ equals }, as I don't believe there is an \equals tag (or whatever) available. --prime mover 16:43, 10 July 2011 (CDT)

Grading proof difficulty
One of the aims of this site is to allow accessibility to all. To that end, there are proofs which are simple and understandable by anyone, whatever their level of mathematical literacy, and there are proofs which require considerably more ability in order to get one's head round.

I wonder whether it's worth adding a "difficulty level" to the proofs we publish, so that casual browsers are able to choose to look at proofs which suit their level of expertise.

This is a quick thought which may or may not make any sense, but I'm throwing it out here so it doesn't get lost.

Anyone care to comment (positively or negatively)? --prime mover 18:22, 12 July 2011 (CDT)


 * I like the idea ... though it needs some thinking. --Joe (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2011 (CDT)

ITP 2011: Nijmegen, 27 Aug 2011
I have just returned from ITP 2011, the 2nd conference on Interactive Theorem Proving, held in Nijmegen, Netherlands between 22nd and 27th August 2011.

I had half an hour to present a talk discussing ProofWiki to a workshop in which several other similar-minded mathematicians had a similar opportunity. It was stimulating and offered up several new directions in which it may be advantageous to expand ProofWiki.

See Current events/ITP 2011 (work in progress) for full details. --prime mover 13:03, 29 August 2011 (CDT)


 * What if we moved what is in current events now into Community portal somewhere, and put this in its place. Seems very current events like? --Joe (talk) 15:19, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * That could work - we could add info as it crops up of whatever other events are going to be happening in the MathWiki community. It's a lot busier out there than I thought it was. Seems it's an idea whose time has arrived. --prime mover 15:29, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * ... Joe, would you be up for moving the "Is there anybody out there?" page into Community Portal? It looks like it may require layout skills over and above what I got. --prime mover 15:31, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * Sure, think it should go into Community portal or its own page? --Joe (talk) 15:38, 31 August 2011 (CDT)
 * It's big enough that it ought to be a link - unless we use a transclusion and stick it at the bottom. What do you think will look good? (Sorry for the delay, I got reading xkcd and just lost a quarter of an hour) --prime mover 15:50, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * I think we should put it on it's own page and put some links up somewhere, either in Community Portal, on the sidebar or both. I have to go out for supper, will get back to this later. --Joe (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * Okay, I have moved "Is there anybody out there?" into Community Portal as suggested, and disabled the contents list on that page so as to allow it to look okay, but it could do with tidying a bit. Anyone up for it? --prime mover 15:42, 1 September 2011 (CDT)

Change of Copyright Conditions
It has been suggested seriously that we need to change our copyright license. We are currently using the GNU Free Documentation License 1.2, but it may be better if we were to move to a Creative Commons license, as this allows more freedom of distribution.

In particular, if we use the same as Wikipedia and PlanetMath, i.e. that any material to be used by anyone, as long as its source is cited, we will be able to share freely any stuff back and forward with no worries. This is particularly important with regard to PlanetMath, as there is a lot of possible and desirable collaboration between the two sites.

But in order for this to happen, we need to make sure that all the contributors to this site are okay with this. I understand that this may be a difficult thing to achieve, as many (most?) of them are no longer active, and it may take some effort tracking them down and getting them to respond.

Advice needed from anyone who has knowledge of all this legal stuff, because I am not a lawyer. --prime mover 14:11, 30 August 2011 (CDT)


 * I know we've had this discussion before (Talk:Main_Page/Archive_3). I don't have much knowledge on this topic either, so I'd be happy to differ to someone more knowledgeable. BTW, great job on the conference Matt. --Joe (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2011 (CDT)


 * Who was the "professional mathematician" who suggested we go to GFDL? Wikipedia uses CC SA not GNU. They obviously changed, so we can too.


 * My attitude is: if you want to use something from this site then you should be able to, although if you do, it would be nice if you say where you got it from. I don't understand how this will make it impossible to use it in a book that you have to pay for - although if the entirety of that book consisted of just stuff from ProofWiki I can see how that would be cheeky. --prime mover 15:57, 31 August 2011 (CDT)

So should I go ahead and switch over to a CC license? --Joe (talk) 15:05, 3 September 2011 (CDT)


 * My view is: if it offers specific advantages of shareability, then I see no problem doing so. But I don't know about the legal aspects of just changing over (and don't currently have the motivation to go and find out, as I don't know how much reading I'll need to do and there's other stuff I want to do instead), and I would welcome someone out there who knows about such stuff who can advise. --prime mover 16:07, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

Search box
Has something been done to the search box? Under Google Chrome it is behaving in a way it probably thinks is really clever, but in fact is irritating. This could be a function of development of Chrome's ongoing upgrade to HTML5 (the "Search Box" is now not just a bland text field). (Firefox doesn't have that problem, but it has other issues and I never use it.) Is there a way the HTML can be amended at infrastructure level so as to turn this "search" box back into an ordinary text input field? Try it out as it is, see what I mean. --prime mover 15:38, 1 September 2011 (CDT)
 * Is it better now? --Joe (talk) 18:35, 2 September 2011 (CDT)
 * You're a genius. What did you do? (I ask in a professional capacity, I'm trying to learn this stuff.) --prime mover 01:23, 3 September 2011 (CDT)
 * Nothing fancy, just a setting for the Vector skin.--Joe (talk) 09:54, 3 September 2011 (CDT)
 * Oh all right, I'll look it up. I'm supposed to be learning about MediaWiki as part of my day-job. --prime mover 14:34, 3 September 2011 (CDT)
 * This particular setting is from the Vector extension. If you have any questions or want to see some config files just let me know. --Joe (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2011 (CDT)
 * Cool - may do that. Chx. --prime mover 15:05, 3 September 2011 (CDT)


 * ... unfortunately, the search box no longer behaves like a search box. It no longer dynamically displays the pages which so-far match what you have typed. --prime mover 14:33, 6 September 2011 (CDT)
 * I'll change the search bar for now so that it dynamically works for now. --Joe (talk) 14:41, 6 September 2011 (CDT)
 * H'mm ... works perfectly! I wonder whether it had got filled with spaces or something silly in my installation the other day. I'll do more experimenting next time something like this happens next time. --prime mover 15:11, 6 September 2011 (CDT)

Bots
Does anyone have any ideas for some bots that would be useful?

A ProofWiki IRC channel
I was working on a project a few days ago and needed to question a developer about something. Turns out the project had an IRC channel, so just signed on and asked my question. Apparently I had found a bug, the developer fixed it in a few minutes, and I was on my way.

Does anyone think ProofWiki would benefit from an IRC channel of its own? Users could join up and chat, ask questions, get help with formatting, etc. --Joe (talk) 15:02, 3 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Do we have enough volume of traffic to make it worth while? On the other hand, will it be likely to increase the volume of traffic? More immediately important: will this cost? --prime mover 16:01, 3 September 2011 (CDT)


 * As for the suggestion: "Users could join up and chat, ask questions, get help with formatting, etc." users seem not to be very interested in asking about formatting, they just go ahead and use their own, preferring to do things the same way they prefer, rather than take the time to determine whether is such a thing as a house style, etc. And they never seem to stay around very long (with 3 exceptions) so with current levels of usage it's unlikely to fly ... I confess I probably wouldn't use it. --prime mover 16:04, 3 September 2011 (CDT)


 * I know I don't keep an IRC client open (and have no desire to), so I wouldn't be very helpful for this. Frankly, I tend to think IRC itself isn't widely used these days, and people can always ask questions by talk pages or email, which someone generally catches pretty quickly. --Alec  (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2011 (CDT)

A useful bot
I recently changed Template:BookReference to allow a "prev" and "next" parameter for an experiment I was going to work on. To do that I had to change it to replace the 2nd and 3rd author parameters to "author2=" and "author3=" to keep it working.

What that means is that all multi-author works need to have that "author2=" and "author3=" added to them so the 2nd and 3rd authors carry on appearing.

Can we have a bot to replace all instances of, for example:
 * BookReference|Counterexamples in Topology|1970|Lynn Arthur Steen|J. Arthur Seebach, Jr.

to:
 * BookReference|Counterexamples in Topology|1970|Lynn Arthur Steen|author2=J. Arthur Seebach, Jr.

I've actually done a lot of the books by hand the last few days (stupid me).

But there's still the one above and also:


 * BookReference|Probability: An Introduction|1986|Geoffrey Grimmett|Dominic Welsh

to be changed to:
 * BookReference|Probability: An Introduction|1986|Geoffrey Grimmett|author2=Dominic Welsh

I think that's all of them. --prime mover 00:34, 20 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Can the search and replace page do this? --Joe (talk) 10:07, 23 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Yes of course - I'd forgotten about that. Job done. --prime mover 12:46, 23 September 2011 (CDT)

Talk page hard to follow?
Does anyone else find following a conversation across several talk pages super confusing (Especially when referring to a past discussion )? Seems like the format: Me
 * You
 * Me

... would work a lot better. --Joe (talk) 16:35, 13 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Can't argue with that, but it has to presuppose that both correspondents have a watch on the talk pages they are posting to. More than once I've continued a conv on my own user talk page and my correspondent hasn't noticed I've replied. --prime mover 17:03, 13 September 2011 (CDT)


 * I see your point. Though, though I think that if someone posts something on your (in general) talk page, generally they are either asking a question or making a statement. It's up to them to check and see what you've had to say. If it's something important you want to tell them, then odds are you'd be posting on their talk page ... which they would get a notification about if they have it set up. ( If any of that made any sense?) --Joe (talk) 17:11, 13 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Fully agree, and go along with it from now. If people miss important stuff, then that's just a real shame. --prime mover 00:44, 14 September 2011 (CDT)

External Links on Home Page
Do we allow external link (to whatever websites) on home pages? Or does it count as "spamming links to external sites"?

I suspect that we ought to allow any user to put whatever they want on their home page ("within reason"). What say? --prime mover 18:39, 27 September 2011 (CDT)


 * Yeah, as long as it's not to a phishing site or something I guess. --Joe (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2011 (CDT)

GeoGebra extension
Thoughts? --Joe (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2011 (CDT)


 * Impressive. I will give it a good workout when I'm in the mood to get back to Euclid. --prime mover 00:35, 4 October 2011 (CDT)

Automatic verification of proofs
Hello ProofWiki users!

I have a thought (nothing concrete at this point) about developing a "wiki"/Q&A site for mathematical proofs, with automatic verification included. This would be similar to ProofWiki, with the difference that you would know the theorems and proofs in it are flawless, and aren't "hand waving".

Please see this (perhaps badly titled) blog post for more details.

I welcome feedback of any kind. I'm not a user of this wiki though, so I won't be coming here to check responses inline - please leave a comment on my blog or email me at ron.gross@gmail.com if you want me to see your feedback.

Ripper234 11:18, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

Linguistic ruling: "alternate" vs. "alternative"
I understand that in American English, the word "alternate" has evolved so as to be another word meaning "alternative". However, in British English, the word "alternate" is used to describe a sequence of things which are taken in turn, e.g. "a, b, a, b, ..." or as squares on a chessboard: "black, white, black, white ...", and can also be a verb with a slightly different pronunciation: "to alternate" meaning "to take one of two different values in turn" etc.

I would suggest that when there are two proofs or definitions posted up, the term "alternate proof" or "alternate definition" should not be used, but "alternative" used instead.

However, there is a linguistic problem even with this: because when there are three or more options, you technically should not use the term "alternative" because strictly speaking it means "the other option of two". If you have three or more choices, then "alternative" is not the term to use (putting contemporary media creations called "the third alternative" aside).

If "alternate" is just being used as a more complicated-looking (and therefore cleverer-looking) word for "other", then I suggest it should not be used at all, and instead just number the proofs "Proof 1", "Proof 2" ... etc.

If a proof has a description (e.g. "direct proof", "proof using induction", "proof using recursion") then use that, indeed, if you can encapsulate that description in one or two terms, but a simple numbering should be enough.

In short, shall we try to make an effort to lose "alternate" (and also "alternative", if you like) out of page subtitles? --prime mover 00:39, 7 November 2011 (CST)

Spamming accounts
We have a fair number of indefinitely-blocked users whose sole purpose was to act as advertising outlets for a variety of piffle. These, as I say, have been blocked and their contents removed, never to be seen again.

The question is: is it possible to delete them completely from the database, as though they had never been created in the first place? As it is, they cause the number of users to be artificially considerably higher than is accurate. --prime mover 14:05, 9 November 2011 (CST)


 * Humm... for some reason I don't get emails for this page. It would be possible to delete these accounts, but it would be a pain. As well, new accounts are still being created for spam purposes ... there were several today. The only difference is that they give fake email addresses. So I don't think deleting them would truly address the problem. --Joe (talk) 19:46, 9 November 2011 (CST)


 * Okay, so 10 new accounts today, all but two in the format (boring name)(dull name)(3-digit number) (and one which is 3 letters followed by 3 digits) which are obviously spamming accounts. Hence we're well on the way to 700 users, although I would guess that of the last 60, probably about 5 are actual serious PW accounts. Not suggesting any solution, just sayin. --prime mover 14:51, 15 November 2011 (CST)


 * It's pretty annoying, but for the moment I don't see anything we can do about it. The mail server is getting a ton of bounced authentication emails as well. I hoped the ReCaptcha and checking the IP's against SORBS would fix the issue. I'll have to do some research to see what options are available. --Joe (talk) 21:10, 15 November 2011 (CST)

I think I've defeated the spamming ... for now. --Joe (talk) 08:07, 24 November 2011 (CST)


 * I just got really confused for a second when suddenly all the edit links were gone and I had to reconfirm my email :p --Alec  (talk) 10:43, 24 November 2011 (CST)

Congruence Symbol and POTW
Point 1: It's time for a new proof of the week, no? It's been a while since May 2.

Point 2: Anyone else get an extraneous space after the congruence symbol? Like in |$\cong$|, on my computer in both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox I get an extraneous space. A similar thing in $\sinh x$ between the "n" and "h", but it's not as noticeable. $\cosh z$ works fine. --GFauxPas 07:30, 17 November 2011 (CST)
 * It's a function of MathJax. I suggest we live with it. We do not want to spend a lot of time making fiddly reformatting of code when a new edition of MathJax may well have addressed the issue. We have already made a few adjustments where the rendering interferes with the interpretation, but I've got no interest in adjusting stuff where it reads perfectly adequately.
 * As for POTW, I expect someone will get round to it sooner or later, if they can be bothered. --prime mover 08:08, 17 November 2011 (CST)

Internal linking
I just had an idea for linking to pages explaining a notation. Something like this:

Then $f$ is described as multiplicative iff:


 * $m$ $\perp$ $n \implies f \left({m n}\right) = f \left({m}\right) f \left({n}\right)$

Click on the $\perp$. Thoughts? --GFauxPas 12:59, 17 November 2011 (CST)


 * I've thought about it, suppose it might work. But.
 * a) Before MathJax, links which consist of just LaTeX don't appear as links (i.e. in blue) so it's not easy to see. And in fact this one doesn't appear blue to me, but maybe that's because my eyesight is deteriorating (and it was never very good to start with).
 * b) You can't right-click on a LaTeX-only link and get the "Open link in new tab" (at least, not in Google Chrome and FireFox), you just get "View source". I argue that you really don't want to navigate away from the page you're reading when you are investigating the meaning of a symbol.
 * What the answer is, IMO, is the compromise of writing underneath the line where it's used:
 * "where $m \perp n$ indicates that $m$ is coprime to $n$"
 * ... and that, generally, is what is done. If not, then it ought to be. --prime mover 14:11, 17 November 2011 (CST)

Suggestions
1) I still think it would be a good idea to have a "suggestions box" type page, but whatever

2) How about a "random definition" option, like there is for random proof?

3) Would it be a bad idea to have a new category, "problems"? Like there are some classic problems that aren't definitions or theorems, like the falling ladder problem, birthday problem, largest open box, $\int \cos x e^x \mathrm dx$, finding a fake pearl out of 9 with only three weighings of a balance scale, pound of feathers pound of gold, etc etc. --GFauxPas 15:57, 12 December 2011 (CST)


 * 1) Wotever. This talk page has proved adequate so far. Anyone else think it's a good idea?
 * 2) The "random page" function comes with MediaWiki as part of its inbuilt functionality, but it excludes all pages not in the main namespace, i.e. everything with a colon in it. Therefore definitions and axioms etc. don't feature. I don't know how easy it is to get it to do this, but why not just a random page of any description?
 * 3) We already have Category:Classic Problems - is this the sort of thing you were thinking about? To a certain extent I agree, but I think we'd have to ruthlessly subcategorise or else it would become too unwieldy a category. (The pearl problem BTW is out of 12.) --prime mover 16:11, 12 December 2011 (CST)
 * Oh okay, 12. But yeah, are any/all of the things I mentioned the kind of things that belong on PW? --GFauxPas 16:17, 12 December 2011 (CST)
 * If you have the patience to a) paste them up, and b) prove the answers, then go for it. --prime mover 16:39, 12 December 2011 (CST)
 * How do I make a category for "classic Calculus problems"? --GFauxPas 17:38, 12 December 2011 (CST)
 * Same way as you make a category for any sort of page. Add the category at the bottom of the page and it appears in red. Click on it and it takes you to the new category page. Then add the supercategory at the bottom. --prime mover 00:19, 13 December 2011 (CST)

Okay, sorry to come across all wikipedia and all that, but what is the decider as to what is considered a "classic problem"? Specifically, what makes Derivative of x to the x "classic"? Can't say I've even seen it in any of the calculus / analysis books I've got (not that I have that many) except perhaps as an exercise, or as a stepping-stone to get somewhere else. No matter, as I established a while back, I can't set myself up as an arbiter. --prime mover 16:25, 13 December 2011 (CST)
 * I don't mind you being an arbiter. It's just my impression from Khan Academy and my Calc I prof. that this is "the" example given to show people the "trick" of taking the logarithm of both sides, in the same vein that "the" example of Integration by Parts is $\int e^x \cos x \mathrm \ dx$. If you don't think it's classic enough, you can remove the tag without offending me. --GFauxPas 17:08, 13 December 2011 (CST)