User talk:Lord Farin

Extension
If you're interested, maybe we could turn the foldable template into a extension, so we could have something like: some lemma

If it works out well maybe even extend it to a general proofs. This should allow for a more customized environment. Let me know if your're interested / think it's a good idea. --Joe (talk) 06:37, 21 October 2011 (CDT)
 * I'm not quite sure what there is to improve by making this transition. In my opinion, we'd best keep structuring the pages quite simple. But, if you have a mind-blowing improvement in mind, I have a willing ear. At this point however, I am not sure what your point is. --Lord_Farin 09:34, 21 October 2011 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I didn't describe that very well. So what I've been thinking of developing for while, but have been to lazy to do, is a MediaWiki extension for ProofWiki. Basically this would include any features we want to add to ProofWiki that MediaWiki doesn't have. So for instance, your foldable sections could be used in a much broader sense. For instance we could have multiple parser tags such as: proof, lemma, etc. Lemma could have a default setting to automatically be hidden. Say you want to hide a proof (for some reason), you would wrap your proof inside  .... tags. Basically not just an extension for hiding page elements, but to improve functionality beyond what's currently available. Essentially to improve the way we present mathematics. Lets hope this makes sense. --Joe (talk) 10:02, 21 October 2011 (CDT)

I see where you are going. Users could specify that proofs never should be hidden, the frequent onlyinclude tags could be reworked to, when absent, automatically use the part of the page within the theorem tag... The possibilities are limitless. I could aid in developing this; however, I deem myself not such a virtuoso that I could do it on my own. Maybe we could start a discussion about what desired functionality the extension should have; such to prevent ambitious and not really necessary or desired functionality. The core should always be that it makes writing and reading theorems and proofs on PW easier. --Lord_Farin 11:46, 21 October 2011 (CDT)
 * Agreed, lets see what Prime.mover thinks --Joe (talk) 12:21, 21 October 2011 (CDT)
 * (wakes up) ... ooerr, wassup? urrr ...
 * Making reading the theorems easier should be no. 1 priority. To that end, I have tried to create a consistent style (but can't take full credit because there was considerable input from others).
 * Rules of thumb:
 * a) We could aim for a rigorous one-definition-per-file, one-theorem-per-file, one-proof-per-file system. I am working through stuff now (you've probably noticed) re-treading the exercise to plunder the books, and pages where there are multiple definitions have had the sub-defs factored out into separate, but transcluded, pages. Theorems are more variable: sometimes it is the statement of the theorem which is onlyincluded, and sometimes it's the proof. The latter happens when there are multiple proofs for the same theorem, the former when there multiple theorems have somehow accumulated (through similarity of subject matter) in the same page (see Trigonometrical Identities and Subset Equivalences for example). This is not completely universal - stuff still needs to be hauled out and refactoried - but it's in progress.
 * b) One of the awkward aspects of the evolved format is the aesthetic appearance of having two blank lines at the end of each section, so there's a wide white gap in between. Now, when you edit a section on its own, rather than editing the whole page, when you save it, it loses one of those two lines so you need to edit the whole page again to add the second line.
 * That's two things. Now if we could start a template, and a  and a  and a  etc. template, we could formalise the structure of a) and include by default the issue raised as b).
 * I'm not sure where to start with this, in order not to make the entry of proofs more fiddly and less intuitively obvious (we already have some hopeless cases who can't even work out how to put a heading in place, so getting them to follow rather more esoteric technique of entering everything via a less-than-universally understood template will be difficult to say the least. Once most of the pages are in the standardly templated formats, then there will at least be something to follow - but with the thick end of 10000 pages to edit this is going to be a long job - and it's barely 6 months since the last smoking-fingers marathon.
 * Try something out, see where you get to, and we can see what it looks like. The folding lemma template was a triumph. --prime mover 14:18, 21 October 2011 (CDT)
 * Okay, if I get some free time tomorrow I'll set up a development environment to work with and setup a basic extension. Are you familiar with git and ssh? I was thinking another feature would be for it to scan every page when saved and check for several things: a theorem, a proof (or a stub template), as well as at least one category. Then prompt the user to add these if not done already. Just thinking out loud. --Joe (talk) 20:37, 21 October 2011 (CDT)

I will start thinking about a system to restructure the way transclusions are done. There are too many problems concerning the heading levels at the moment; all solutions up to now are very arbitrary (not too speak about the littered include tags). --Lord_Farin 09:26, 24 February 2012 (EST)

Thanks
Thanks for helping me set up Tarskis' Geometry, LF :) --GFauxPas 14:02, 24 January 2012 (EST)


 * Welcome. I've noticed that I can grasp and use new definitions and axioms at speeds greatly above average. It would just be selfish to keep that advantage to myself and not put it to good use ;). --Lord_Farin 14:06, 24 January 2012 (EST)


 * LF I'd like your help for the Axiom of Continuity. Though I understand the axiom itself, there are some concepts there that are too delicate for me. Namely,the author gives a presentation of the axiom as a 2nd-order statement or an axiom schema, while the information is (he claims) still expressible as a first order statement. I don't know how that works, and I'd appreciate your illumination of the matter once you get a chance to look at it. --GFauxPas 17:11, 24 January 2012 (EST)


 * As it stands, and if I read correctly, the second-order statement is subtly stronger than the schema (because not all sets can be defined in first-order logic; hence cannot be covered by first-order statements). However, first-order theories are quite important because they have a theorem (the Completeness Theorem) stating that if something is necessarily true in all models of a theory (like Tarski Geometry, or Set Theory), then you can prove it (!). See WikiPedia. This is not true for second-order theories. Lastly, the sets that first-order logic 'misses' can often be circumvented in some way, but at a price: theorems like Peano's Axioms Uniquely Define Natural Numbers fail when P5 is replaced by the corresponding first-order axiom schema. Hopefully, you could follow that. --Lord_Farin 17:37, 24 January 2012 (EST)
 * I didn't get everything in that paragraph but it helped me out, thanks! But what does the author mean that the axiom can be used in first order form, even though it's presented as second order? --GFauxPas 22:16, 24 January 2012 (EST)


 * I think he means that, if you are willing to pay the price I mentioned earlier, you can swap the second-order axiom for the schema to receive all benefits of the extensive theory on first-order logic (as this is the only axiom which is second-order). --Lord_Farin 02:59, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Hi there... anything else I should know
Hey there. I'm a new user, and I noticed you've been following along cleaning up my edits. Any chance you could add anything else that I should watch out for? I should be able to learn from the ones you've corrected, although I couldn't find a good guide on all the nitpicks around. Scshunt 03:20, 17 February 2012 (EST)


 * Sorry to butt in ... I take your point regarding "nitpicks". Some of the structuring does seem arbitrary and overly fussy, but there is method in our madness. One day we ought to make sure that all our nitpicks are gathered together on one page, but this has not happened yet (mea culpa).
 * In the meantime not to worry - tidying up is just something we do (well, me in particular) when nerving up energy for something that will take a considerable amount of hard work. --prime mover 07:20, 18 February 2012 (EST)


 * Sorry, I didn't meant that to come off badly. I consider myself to be a skilled picker of nits, much to the annoyance of those around me, so I'm not in the least annoyed that you want to maintain a consistent style. That's vital for making sure that the project doesn't become a mess. --Scshunt 01:47, 19 February 2012 (EST)


 * Skilled nickers of pits (oh wot-EV-er) are welcome. --prime mover 02:10, 20 February 2012 (EST)


 * You should check out Help:Editing; it contains most of house style. The most important thing is that it is strived for that all definitions get their separate pages, rather than one page containing a load of definitions. For example, you will see that I moved the definition of connectivity back to its own page. Feel free to ask if anything is unclear. Oh, and indeed, I prefer to answer a question on the same page, it's easier then to keep track of the conversation. --Lord_Farin 03:23, 17 February 2012 (EST)


 * Ok, thanks! Scshunt 03:25, 17 February 2012 (EST)